Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.'



PRIVATE BUSINESS.

SOUTHERN RAILWAY (SUPERANNUATION FUND) BILL.

Lords Amendments considered

The Chairman of Ways and Means (Sir Dennis Herbert): The Amendments in this case merely correct a drafting error.

Lords Amendments agreed to.

RAILWAY CLEARING SYSTEM SUPERANNUATION FUND CORPORATION BILL.

Read the Third time, and passed.

Oral Answers to Questions — COLONIAL DEVELOPMENT.

Mr. Sorensen: asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is satisfied that all preparations possible are being made, including the taking of a census, in British Colonies, as will enable social development and the efficacious use of the Development Fund to take place without delay at the conclusion of the war?

Mr. David Adams: asked the Undersecretary of State for the Colonies whether it is intended, in the near future, to take a census of population in the respective territories of the West Indies in preparation for social developments at the end of the war?

The Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies (Mr. George Hall): My Noble Friend is most anxious not only that plans for social development should be prepared, but that, even during the war, the actual work of development should proceed wherever it can be undertaken without interference with the war effort, and that as full advantage as possible should be taken of the financial provision made by the Colonial Development and Welfare

Act; and he is about to address a circular despatch to all Colonial Governments in regard to this important matter. As regards the taking of a census, the conclusion was reached with regret last spring that in the circumstances then existing it was necessary to abandon the proposal that a census should be taken throughout the Colonial Empire in 1941. A special census for Jamaica is, however, under consideration in connection with the constitutional proposals recently made public for that Colony. The question of taking a census in the Colonies generally will be considered as soon as conditions make it practicable.

Mr. Sorensen: Does my hon. Friend appreciate that the absence of reliable and available statistics will be a barrier to social development in the future, and in these circumstances will he promote every possibility of collecting as many statistics as possible of a non-expensive character before the end of the war?

Mr. Hall: That is being done.

Oral Answers to Questions — WAR AND PEACE AIMS (LORD HALIFAX'S SPEECH).

Mr. Mander: asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what communications he has received from Allied Governments concerning Lord Halifax's declaration of war and peace aims at New York in March; and whether he will consult with them with a view to obtaining their views on the statement?

The Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Butler): No communications have been received from Allied Governments on this subject, and no approach to them is contemplated.

Mr. Mander: Has the right hon. Gentleman any reason to think that the Allied Governments in any way disapprove of this admirable expression of our views?

Mr. Butler: No, Sir. I have no reason to believe that, and if they have any views to express, no doubt they will express them.

Oral Answers to Questions — MALAYA (SPECIAL WAR TAX).

Mr. Parker: asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies what is the highest rate of Income Tax in Malaya and


on what incomes it is paid; what is the highest income exempt from such taxation; and why a larger sum is not contributed from Income Tax in this prosperous Colony towards the Imperial war effort?

Mr. George Hall: The Special War Tax recently adopted in the Straits Settlements and Federated Malay States is charged on incomes of not less than £560 a year, and the rate of tax varies from 2 per cent. on small incomes to 8 per cent. on incomes of £2,330 and above. Income Tax is not a normal form of taxation in Malaya, and the debates in the local Legislatures disclosed many doubts as to its suitability in local conditions. My hon. Friend will no doubt appreciate the very substantial payments which have been contributed both by the Colony and the Malay States to His Majesty's Government for war purposes as well as their greatly increased provision for local defence expenditure.

Mr. Parker: Is there any reason why Income Tax in Malaya should not be raised to the same rate as in this country?

Mr. Hall: My hon. Friend will realise" that in one of the territories no Income Tax has ever been charged before, and that in the other, from 1921 until the present time, no form of Income Tax has been charged. There is a good deal of controversy concerning this matter, and I think that this is a very plucky effort on the part of the Governor to introduce it now.

Oral Answers to Questions — ROAD ACCIDENTS (STRAYING CATTLE).

Mr. Wakefield: asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport whether, in view of the black-out conditions, he will make it obligatory for farmers to keep their cattle under control and off the roads at night, thus preventing accidents to the public occurring, such as the one to which the hon. Member for Swindon recently drew his attention?

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport (Colonel Llewellin): I will consult with my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture and Fisheries to see whether means can be found of reducing the risk of accidents due to cattle straying on the highways at night.

Oral Answers to Questions — MINISTRY OF INFORMATION.

BROADCAST POSTSCRIPTS.

Major Lloyd: asked the Minister of Information whether, in view of the fact that the Sunday night postscripts tend to promote political controversy and are detrimental to national unity, which is so essential at the present time, he will invite the British Broadcasting Corporation to abolish these talks except in the case of Cabinet Ministers?

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Information (Mr. Harold Nicolson): My hon. and gallant Friend will have observed that during recent weeks all subjects likely to provoke political controversy have been avoided in Sunday evening postscripts.

Mr. Mathers: Has not that resulted in the postscripts being so nebulous as to be unsatisfactory

NEWS (RELEASE).

Lieutenant-Colonel Sir Thomas Moore: asked the Minister of Information what are the reasons which prevent the. immediate release of confirmed war news to the British public and its transmission to the United States of America?

Mr. Nicolson: News put out by the enemy is in many cases not "confirmed" news but news which the enemy are only too anxious for us either to confirm or to deny. Apart from this, my right hon. Friend knows of no reasons, other than security reasons, which prevent the immediate release of news.

Sir T. Moore: While I acknowledge the accuracy of the reply, is my hon. Friend not aware that there is really very considerable anxiety and a great eagerness in this country and in the United States that confirmed news should be available as rapidly as possible?

Mr. Nicolson: That is a point to which my right hon. Friend is giving very constant attention.

HOUSE OF COMMONS AND WESTMINSTER ABBEY (BOMBING).

Commander Bower: asked the Minister of Information whether full propaganda use will be made of the fact that the recent damage to the House of Commons and Westminster Abbey was the result of deliberate low-altitude dive-


bombing and constituting a deliberate policy of vandalism on the part of Germany?

Mr. Nicolson: The damage inflicted on Westminster Abbey and the House of Commons was the subject of a special communiqué on the day after the event, and the incident has already received the fullest publicity. While my right hon. Friend does not think that the world stands in need of any further evidence of deliberate vandalism on the part of Germany, he is grateful for this opportunity of calling attention to the fact that the German Press confessed that the destruction was intentional.

Mr. McGovern: Is it not more important to give publicity to the destruction of working-class houses than of such institutions?

QUEEN'S UNIVERSITY, BELFAST (EXAMINATION SCRIPTS, CENSORSHIP).

Professor Savory: asked the Minister of Information whether he is aware that the Queen's University, of Belfast, is precluded by its charter from holding any examinations leading up to a degree without the co-operation of external examiners; and will he therefore give instructions to the chief postal censor that examination scripts, corrected by external examiners in Great Britain, shall be transmitted to the university without the necessity of obtaining a permit, and that the sealed packets containing the marked scripts shall not be opened by the officials of the postal and telegraph censorship department, as the university is prepared to offer all the necessary guarantees?

Mr. Nicolson: My right hon. Friend regrets that it is not legally possible for him to issue the instructions proposed by the hon. Member. If, however, the appropriate authority in Queen's University, Belfast, will communicate with the Chief Postal Censor, steps will be taken to facilitate the grant of the necessary permits.

COAL SUPPLIES.

Mr. Mander: asked the Secretary for Mines what steps he is taking to remedy the serious shortage of coal in the West Midlands; whether he is aware that it is proving impossible in many cases to maintain the minimum supply of two cwts.

per week; that thousands of households are short of coal; and that fair distribution between merchants is not taking place?

The Secretary for Mines (Mr. David Grenfell): Yes, Sir, I am aware that the house coal situation in parts of the Midland area is difficult. Various causes have contributed to the depletion of stocks and in some cases to actual shortage of current supplies. To the extent that there is a shortage of production, the industry is being requested to make every effort, with the help of my Department, to ensure that production during the summer will be sufficient to provide adequately for all industrial and domestic needs and to replenish stocks in preparation for next winter.

Mr. Mander: Can my hon. Friend hold out any hopes of immediate action being taken to supply people in the West Midlands with the coal which they cannot get at the present time, as many coal merchants simply have not coal to deliver to their customers?

Mr. Grenfell: In conditions of shortage the hon. Member and the House will be aware that what are called priorities come into operation, and there are schemes for domestic consumers of coal. For the moment I think that priorities must have first place, but we are hoping to have an increase of production.

Mr. Mander: Does that really mean that the Government admit that they are not in a position to supply customers and householders at the present time with sufficient coal with which to carry on?

Mr. Grenfell: I am afraid that that is so in some districts; it is clear that they are not being supplied.

BRITISH ARMY (EDUCATIONAL CORPS).

Mr. Lipson: asked the Secretary of State for War whether he will consider increasing the establishment, so far as senior officers are concerned, in the Army Educational Corps, as was suggested by the Brownrigg Report?

The Financial Secretary to the War Office (Mr. Richard Law): The recommendations of the committee to which my hon. Friend refers concerned the peace establishment of the Army Educational


Corps. I do not think this is an appropriate time to fix the future peace establishment. During the war there has been a temporary increase of establishment of more than 50 per cent. in the higher ranks, based on the responsibilities of posts, and promotions to fill this establishment are made, when vacancies occur, under the war promotion rules.

Mr. Lipson: Does not my hon. Friend consider that this service is important in war as well as in peace, and, if so, will he not reconsider it?

Mr. Law: Certainly, Sir. I think it has been made clear that this service is regarded as being of the highest importance in war, but I am saying that the present time does not seem appropriate for consideration to be given to this question.

Captain Anstruther-Gray: Will my hon. Friend bear in mind that Army educational officers, admirable though they maybe, are a luxury which can be dispensed with when the Army is short?

Mr. Lipson: .Will my hon. Friend make it clear that he does not share that view?

Mr. Lipson: asked the Secretary of State for War whether, in view of the fact that in the Army Educational Corps an officer cannot be promoted to the rank of major till he has had 22 years of commissioned service whereas in the combatant corps only 17 years is required, he will take steps to remove this difference in the qualifying period?

Mr. Law: The peace-time conditions of service in the Army Educational Corps differ in various respects from those of the combatant arms. Officers of the Army Educational Corps continue, for example, to serve until they are 60 years of age, regardless of rank, whereas the combatant officer, who does not rise above the rank of major, under peace conditions normally has to retire at 47. For these reasons, I think the differentiation to which my hon. Friend refers is justified.

Oral Answers to Questions — CIVIL DEFENCE.

FIRE SERVICE.

Mr. Mathers: asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he is aware that, in a number of areas in Scotland,

four, and in some instances five, Ministers have responsibility for fire-fighting precautions; and whether he will consider instituting a unified direction and control of this aspect of civil defence?

The Joint Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. Westwood): Under the Fire Prevention (Business Premises) Order, 1941, a number of Departments are responsible for the fire prevention arrangements at the business premises in which they have an interest. Departmental policy at the centre is co-ordinated by the Fire Prevention Executive, on which the Departments principally concerned are represented.

Mr. Mathers: That organisation sounds a little loose, and while I do not want to see the thing have to be tested out in practice, may I ask the Minister whether, if experience shows the necessity for tightening this up by giving more authority, that will be taken into account?

Mr. Westwood: Certainly, Sir.

Sir T. Moore: asked the Home Secretary what are the areas in which steps are being taken to enforce the compulsory enrolment of fire-bomb watchers?

Mr. Mabane: I would refer the hon. and gallant Member to the Reply given on 26th March to my hon. Friend the Member for Duddeston (Mr. Simmonds).

Sir T. Moore: What steps are being taken or can be taken, against those who refuse to enroll?

Mr. Mabane: That is another question.

Dr. Russell Thomas: Does not the Minister consider that the question has been pushed too far, and that hard-working civilians are far more important than second-rate property?

HOUSE OF COMMONS STAFF (LOSS OF PERSONAL EFFECTS).

Captain Cunningham-Reid: asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will consider compensating in full those members of the House of Commons staff who, owing to the bombing of the House of Commons, have lost clothes and effects which they habitually used in the course of carrying out their duties?

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade (Captain Waterhouse): Members of the House of Commons staff


are, of course, entitled to the same rights under the private chattels scheme in regard to both free compensation and to insurance as any other persons. I have arranged for the staff concerned to receive assistance in the preparation of their claims, which will receive immediate consideration.

Mr. Shinwell: If these members of the House of Commons staff are accustomed to wear a certain kind of clothing and livery in the course of their duties, is there not a special claim for consideration, and should they not be suitably compensated?

Captain Waterhouse: Under the scheme a man is entitled to an immediate payment for real necessities, and there is no doubt that such livery will be considered a real necessity.

AUXILIARY TERRITORIAL SERVICE (ALIEN MEMBERS).

Mr. Sorensen: asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether his attention has been drawn to the fact that alien members of His Majesty's Auxiliary Territorial Service have not had, in certain districts, their police restrictions yet relaxed, and that in Lancaster the police do not allow them to leave the town; and will he issue instructions to the police removing all such restrictions, so that alien girls serving in His Majesty's Forces are treated on the same terms as English girls?

The Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Peake): Consultations have taken place with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for War, and the necessary steps are being taken to give effect to this suggestion.

FIRE-RESISTING SUBSTANCES.

Mr. Ellis Smith: asked the Home Secretary whether his Department has tested the various types of fire-resisting material, paints and washes which are being advertised; and whether he will exercise all necessary powers, or will take further power, to prevent useless devices for fire-prevention being sold to the public?

The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Home Security (Mr. Mabane): A British standards specification for fire-resisting treatment was issued

last year. In Handbook No. 9, "Incendiary Bombs and Fire Precautions," and in the publication "Air Raids" the public were informed how to make a compound which satisfies the specification. A number of proprietary substances which comply with the specification have also been placed on sale. If householders in purchasing such materials will take the precaution of ascertaining that they are in accordance with the specification, there will be no need to complicate administration by taking additional powers in this matter.

Mr. Smith: asked the Home Secretary whether he is aware that advertisements are appearing in trade and industrial journals of proprietary liquids to be used for fighting incendiary bombs; whether he can give any guidance to the public as to which of these, if any, are of real use; and whether the purchase of such proprietary extinguishers by local authorities will rank for grant?

Mr. Mabane: Yes, Sir, but at the same time I should like to acknowledge the assistance rendered by a very large section of the Press in refusing to accept advertisements for those commodities of this nature which may be harmful or of doubtful efficacy as compared with water. A number of proprietary chemical liquids are being sold, some at high prices, for which it is claimed that they readily extinguish incendiary bombs. Many of these have been tested by the Research and Experiments Department of the Ministry of Home Security, but in no case has any been found which can be recommended in preference to water. There is no substantial difference in their favour in the time taken to extinguish a bomb. Apart from this, a far more important consideration is the necessity to be in a position to deal immediately with surrounding materials which are often set on fire by the bomb. For the dual purpose of extinguishing the bomb and the fire it causes, there is no liquid as cheap or as readily obtainable as water. Moreover, some of the liquids being sold are corrosive, some contain caustic substances dangerous to the eyes and others produce fumes and smoke which may be harmful, and in any case make fire-fighting difficult. In these circumstances expenditure incurred on any such liquids would not be recognised for purposes of grant.

Mr. Smith: What steps, if any, have been taken, and if no steps have been taken will the Minister see that steps are taken to give this information to the local authorities?

Mr. Mabane: I hope my reply will give publicity to the matter.

Mr. Leslie Boyce: Will the Minister see that the Ministry of Information give due publicity to his reply?

Mr. Mabane: I will draw attention to that.

Miss Eleanor Rathbone: Would it not be better to prohibit the use of these objectionable substances?

LIGHTING REGULATIONS (SCOTLAND).

Sir T. Moore: asked the Home Secretary whether he is satisfied that all important cities in Scotland are adequately blacked out?

Mr. Mabane: I am satisfied that the Lighting Regulations are properly devised to secure an adequate black-out. The observation of these Regulations in Scottish cities, as elsewhere, is the constant concern of the Department, and any reports of inadequacy of the black-out are immediately pursued with the chief constables concerned.

AERIAL BOMBING.

Mr. Sorensen: asked the Prime Minister whether His Majesty's Government have considered, or will consider, making a direct or indirect proposal for the mutual abolition of night bombing or whether they will state terms, conditions and safeguards under which they would consider sympathetically this or any similar proposal for the restriction of aerial bombing?

The Lord Privy Seal (Mr. Attlee): No, Sir.

Mr. Sorensen: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether his attention has been drawn to an appeal by several prominent men, including the Bishops of Chichester and Bristol, Bernard Shaw and Professor Gilbert Murray; and whether he is also aware that, although opinion is divided, there is a considerable amount of opinion in blitzed areas in London that desires that this proposal shall be examined?

Sir Herbert Williams: Does not the Lord Privy Seal consider it unfortunate that this proposal should be put forward just at the time when we are getting on top of the Germans?

Mr. Sorensen: Would the right hon. Gentleman mind answering my Supplementary Question?

Mr. Attlee: The point is that, certainly, in the view of the Government, it is not practicable to think that you can come to any agreement with people who do not keep agreements.

Mr. Shinwell: Is my right hon. Friend also aware that there is a very strong opinion in the country which feels that we ought to bomb the Germans much harder than we do?

PREMISES (REQUISITIONING).

Sir William Davison: asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware of the growing dissatisfaction on the part of the public as to the existing procedure for requisitioning premises at short notice by various Government Departments independently, as well as by local authorities; and whether he will consider the setting up of a single body to deal with requisitioning?

Mr. Attlee: The Ministry of Works and Buildings does in fact to a considerable extent requisition accommodation for the use of other Departments. It would not, however, be practicable so to centralise the power to requisition as to deprive of that power the competent authorities specified in Defence Regulation 49. It has also proved essential to give delegated powers of requisitioning to local authorities in order that they may discharge efficiently and with dispatch their vital war-time duties.

Sir W. Davison: Is my right hon. Friend aware of the different procedure which is adopted by various bodies? Many of them order evacuation at a few days' notice, when it is quite impossible for the unfortunate persons to obtain either another residence or other business premises. When they' ask the authorities where they shall go, they are told to find accommodation themselves, because it is none of the authorities' business. Is not this very regrettable?

Mr. Attlee: If the hon. Gentleman knows of any instance of that kind, perhaps he will bring it to the attention of the appropriate Minister.

Oral Answers to Questions — FOOD SUPPLIES.

POTATOES (SIZE).

Mr. R. C. Morrison: asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether he is aware that potato dealers in Spitalfields market are delivering sacks of potatoes to greengrocers described as best King Edwards, containing very large potatoes weighing nearly 2 pounds each, which the public will not buy; and whether potatoes of this size equal in food value potatoes of normal size?

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food (Major Lloyd George): I am informed that no complaints of this nature have reached the Ministry of Food. In regard to the latter part of my hon. Friend's Question, I am advised that the food value of an abnormally large potato is not diminished because of its size.

STANDSTILL ORDER.

Sir Francis Fremantle (for Captain Lyons): asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether he is aware of the fact that the Standstill Order in relation to the sale of foodstuffs has been in operation since the beginning of 1941 without any amendment; and whether, in the public interest, he will now issue classified maximum prices for all those commodities which have not been so dealt with?

Major Lloyd George: No, Sir. That is not the case. Of the 24 items scheduled in the Order, 10 have already been partially or wholly covered by Maximum Price Orders. Maximum Price Orders are shortly to be made for several of the remaining items, and the prices of others are to be controlled by agreement with the manufacturers.

Mr. George Griffiths: Will the hon. and gallant Gentleman see that there is a Maximum Price Order put on insulin, because insulin in the last fortnight has gone up by 33 per cent.?

Major Lloyd George: I will look into that.

SPECULATION.

Sir F. Fremantle (for Captain Lyons): asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether his attention has been called to a further statement of events issued by the North Midland Food Price Investigation Committee, in direct conflict with recent official announcements; and whether he has any further explanation to make?

Major Lloyd George: As my hon. and gallant Friend has given notice that he intends to raise this matter at an early date on the Adjournment, I would prefer to postpone making any statement I have to make until then.

Mr. Lipson: Does not the hon. and gallant Gentleman think it is time this unsavoury public controversy ceased? Would he not meet a representative committee?

Major Lloyd George: The hon. Member will appreciate that it has nothing to do with me. I have only answered the Questions put to me in this House.

Sir F. Fremantle (for Captain Lyons): asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether his attention has been called to the statement on behalf of the Area Provisions and Grocers Committee of the Ministry, North Midlands Region, that they urged upon the Department certain steps for licensing, and for the prevention of repeated middle men's profits, in September and December, 1939, and received formal acknowledgment only from the Department; and whether he can now give any explanation why no step was taken since 1939?

Major Lloyd George: I have nothing to add to the full reply which I gave my hon. and gallant Friend on 14th May.

SPECIAL BISCUIT.

Mr. Mander: asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether he will now give consideration to the possibility of preventing most cases of nutritional deficiencies by providing a biscuit, for all who desire it, containing the minimum daily requirements of the most important vitamins and minerals, in view of the fact that production of such an article on a large scale would be simple and cheap?

Major Lloyd George: I would refer my hon. Friend to my reply to his Question on this subject on 19th September last.

Mr. Mander: Do I understand that no further consideration has been given to this question since then? Is my hon. and gallant Friend aware that scientific experts are in favour of the wisdom and practicability of a scheme of this kind? Will he look further into it?

Major Lloyd George: The hon. Gentleman is not entitled to say that no consideration has been given to it. I simply referred him to my previous answer. As a matter of fact, a lot of consideration has been given to it. There is much natural vitamin available, and constant research is being carried out with regard to putting vitamins into various forms of food, but investigations have shown that biscuits are not the best form of food in which to put vitamins.

Mr. Mander: Would it not have been much better to have given that supplementary answer in reply to my original Question?

UNRATIONED FOODS.

Mr. Hannah: asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether he is aware of the suffering among many of the working classes through the fact that richer people are getting much of the available supplies of eggs, sausages and cooked meat; and will he consider the advisability of so rationing these commodities as to ensure a fair distribution to all?

Major Lloyd George: The extension of rationing to commodities at present unrationed is under review, but as I informed my hon. Friend the Member for the Combined English Universities (Miss Rathbone) on 30th April, it is undesirable to give advance information on matters of this kind.

Mr. Hannah: Are the Government aware that munitions and coal workers and others in the Midlands are suffering badly through not having adequate and suitable food, and that this is a very pressing problem?

Major Lloyd George: Munitions workers should have canteens in their works, and I would remind my hon. Friend that if they have these canteens, they are, in

fact, receiving supplementary rations. As my hon. Friend knows, underground mine workers are receiving an extra ration of cheese.

Mr. James Griffiths: Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware of the growing concern at the increase in the size of queues in all the provincial towns? Will he take every step possible to end this queueing, which is very serious?

Major Lloyd George: I agree with the hon. Gentleman. I do not like this queueing at all, but I would remind him that it is not always due to a shortage of food. There have been queues in which the people in them did not know what they were queueing for, such as one lady who found she was queueing for bird seed, although she had no bird.

Mr. Rhys Davies: Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that some of these queues are formed because the men who used to be behind the counters of the shops have been taken into the Army?

Major Lloyd George: But there are also queues for cigarettes and sweets.

Mrs. Hardie: As meat has been allocated for manufacturing purposes, could the Parliamentary Secretary see that some proportion is put into sausages?

CANTEENS.

Mr. Hannah: asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether his attention has been called to the fact that, in some cases, munition workers have not sufficiently nourishing food; and will he see that canteens for manual labourers get preference with such food as cheese and meat?

Major Lloyd George: I have no information which suggests that sufficiently nourishing food is not available in canteens for munition workers, but I shall be glad to look into any particular case which my hon. Friend may have in mind. All registered canteens are entitled to receive supplies of meat on the prescribed scale, and although it is not lawful for cheese and meat to be served to the same person at the same meal, a preferential allotment of cheese is available for canteens serving workers engaged on essential production.

Mr. Hannah: Are the Government aware that there have been many serious complaints in the Bilston and Wolverhampton areas about this very point?

Major Lloyd George: I shall be glad to look into any complaints.

CASSEROLE STEWED STEAK.

Mr. McKinlay: asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether his attention has been drawn to disclosures regarding Hendry's casserole stewed steak, made by Colonel Hugh B. Spens, the chairman of the Food Price Committee in Glasgow and South-West Scotland, as the result of investigations by his committee; did he consider Colonel Spens's action to have been improper; and has any action been taken by the Department to control tinned meats as recommended by the Glasgow and South-West Scotland Committee?

Major Lloyd-George: My attention has been drawn to reports in the daily Press of the statement referred to by my hon. Friend. Casserole stewed steak is manufactured in Eire and imported under licence approved by my Department. The price at which first-hand sales in this country were to be made was agreed with the importers, and the licences were approved on the condition that the importers would take all possible steps to ensure that the retail price did not exceed is. 6d. per tin. It was arranged six weeks ago that further importations should have the retail price printed on the label. In reply to the second part of the Question, as in this case publication did not prejudice the taking of legal proceedings, the circumstances were different from the other case which has formed the subject of recent Parliamentary Questions. In reply to the last part of the Question, a Maximum Price Order for home-manufactured canned meats is now being drafted which will be followed by a corresponding Order for imported products.

MEAT PRODUCTS.

Mr. McKinlay: asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether there has been any reduction in the price charged to Group 1 manufacturers for meat used in manufacturing moat products?

Major Lloyd George: There have been no substantial changes in the prices

charged to Group 1 manufacturers of meat products. Although there have been minor adjustments in both directions, on balance their effect has not been to reduce the cost to manufacturers.

Mr. McKinlay: Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that on the day following the food Debate in this House recently, Messrs. Lewis, in Glasgow, reduced the price of cooked sausages by 6d. a lb.? Is he prepared to take steps to put an end to the gross profiteering by this organisation in preserved and cooked foods?

Major Lloyd George: I cannot accept what the hon. Gentleman says about gross profiteering, but if he will bring any case to my notice, I will have it looked into.

Mr. McKinlay: Is it not standing out a mile that if a firm can reduce by 6d. a lb. the price of cooked sausages 24 hours after a Debate, when there has been no reduction in the price of raw material, they have obviously charged 6d. more than they ought to have charged before the date of the Debate?

Mr. McGovern: Let us have another Debate.

Major Lloyd George: I do not quite see the point about it "standing out a mile," but if the hon. Gentleman will let me have full particulars, I will give them consideration.

EGGS.

Mr. Batey: asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether he is aware that last week, in the North of England, it was only possible to obtain one egg between each two persons; and when eggs will be rationed?

Major Lloyd George: Proposals for improving the distribution of eggs are in an advanced stage of preparation.

Mr. Batey: What does that mean? Does it mean that eggs are likely to be rationed very soon, because it is time they were?

Major Lloyd George: It means exactly what it says. The distribution of eggs, as the hon. Gentleman knows, is the most difficult thing of all to control. It is easy to sell eggs in all ways, but proposals for redistribution are under consideration.

Mr. Batey: When may be expect a statement on the matter?

Major Lloyd George: Very shortly.

Mr. Sorensen: Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that there have been lengthy queues of people in many parts of London but that they have been unable to get a single egg?

Major Lloyd George: I have seen these queues myself. I believe some of them are due to advertisements. I have seen shops in many parts of London which have advertised that eggs will be available at 3.30, or whatever time it may be. Such advertisements are bound to attract people.

Sir Joseph Lamb: Is it not a fact that hens themselves are queueing up in poultry yards?

TEA.

Mr. Batey: asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether he will consider increasing the tea ration for persons who take no meals in restaurants?

Major Lloyd George: No, Sir.

Mr. Batey: Does the Minister realise that there are many old people who cannot go to restaurants to get food, and ought not they to have some consideration?

Major Lloyd George: I am always prepared to consider any cases put forward, but the hon. Member will appreciate that it would be extremely difficult administratively to divide people into those who go to restaurants and those who do not.

Mr. Batey: Is it not a fact that there are some people who can go to restaurants and others who cannot, and ought not those who cannot go to be given additional rations?

Major Lloyd George: It would be very difficult administratively. With the increase in the number of British Restaurants, we hope that more people will be able to go to restaurants.

Miss Eleanor Rathbone: Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman aware that this is one of the most unfair things in the rationing system, and that the ration could be increased if no tea could be obtained at restaurants without coupons, and if tea

and coffee were included in the same ration?

Major Lloyd George: I cannot possibly accept the hon. Lady's statement. It is a suggestion that is made often with regard to other commodities as well, and it has no foundation.

FISH.

Mr. Parker: asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether he is now in a position to say what steps he proposes to take to rationalise fish distribution, and cheapen prices and increase supplies to the consumer?

Major Lloyd George: I would refer my hon. Friend to my reply on30th April to a Question on this subject by the hon. Member for Linlithgow (Mr. Mathers).

Mr. Parker: Can the hon. and gallant Gentleman give any date when he will be able to make a statement on the subject?

Major Lloyd George: Very shortly.

DE-HYDRATED FOODS.

Mr. Wakefield: asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether he will consider increasing the import of de-hydrated foods in order to save shipping space?

Major Lloyd George: Yes, Sir, this possibility is constantly borne in mind, and experiments are now in progress from which useful results may be expected.

FRUIT PRESERVATION.

Mr. J. Griffiths: asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether, in view of the advice tendered that such fruit as blackberries and black currants contain vitamin C and are good substitutes, in that respect, for oranges, he will make available supplies of sugar to enable those who grow, or can collect, these fruits to preserve them?

Major Lloyd George: It is not intended to allow any part of the valuable crops to which my hon. Friend refers, which can be collected, to be wasted through lack of sugar for preserving them. The demand of the jam manufacturers and of the fresh fruit trade for the commercially grown crops is expected to be keen, and special arrangements have been made for such fruit as does not find a ready market, to be preserved in co-operative centres throughout the country.

Mr. Griffiths: Will the Minister take an early opportunity of making well known to the public whatever decision the Department makes?

Mr. A. Bevan: Will the hon. and gallant Gentleman realise that many housewives will find it extremely distasteful to collect the fruit themselves and take it to a centre, and then have the jam made in accordance with recipes which they do not like?

ANIMALS (ILLICIT SLAUGHTERING).

Mr. J. Griffiths: asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether he is aware of the increase in the illicit slaughtering of animals taking place, with the consequent evasion of meat rationing, and the waste of by-products, which are buried; and what steps he is taking to prevent this practice?

Major Lloyd George: I am aware that a certain amount of illicit slaughtering of animals is taking place. Inquiries are made into all cases where the Ministry's officers have reason to suspect that this type of offence is being committed, and proceedings are taken where the necessary evidence is available. The number of prosecutions for illicit slaughter in March was 100 compared with only 18 in November last.

Mr. Griffiths: Has the inspectorate been increased for the purpose of stopping this practice which takes place in rural areas and by which, it is alleged, well-to-do people can substantially increase their meat ration?

Major Lloyd George: I cannot answer that supplementary question without notice.

Mr. Lipson: Is the number of inspectors adequate?

Major Lloyd George: I should like to have notice of that supplementary question.

CHEESE.

Sir Leonard Lyle: asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether he can report on the working of the first week's rationing of cheese?

Major Lloyd George: The reports received indicate that in general the rationing of cheese is working smoothly and

supplies in the shops are adequate to meet the requirements of registered customers. A few instances of short supply were due to late registrations.

Oral Answers to Questions — MINISTRY OF SUPPLY.

MUNITIONS INSPECTORATE.

Mr. Ness Edwards: asked the Minister of Supply what are the conditions of employment of chief inspector of ammunition inspectors in shell factories; and why the senior inspector was dismissed without notice at a shell factory, the name of which has been supplied to his Department?

The Minister of Supply (Sir Andrew Duncan): The case to which the hon. Member refers was that of a fourth-class examiner. I am making inquiries, and I will communicate with the hon. Member as soon as they have been completed.

Mr. Edwards: In view of the keen resentment felt in the area, will the right hon. Gentleman give an assurance that he will personally probe this matter to the bottom?

Sir A. Duncan: It is because I am personally probing the matter to the bottom that I have not given an answer to-day.

PAPER (CHEQUES).

Mr. Parker: asked the Minister of Supply whether he is aware that paper is wasted in the production of large cheques; and whether he will approach the banks to secure the issue of smaller cheques of uniform size?

Sir A. Duncan: Steps are already being taken to secure economy along the lines suggested.

WAR DAMAGE ACT.

Mr. Emery: asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what is the position in relation to contributions under the War Damage Act of property which is uninhabitable or unusable, but to which rating and Schedule A assessments still attach, although not being paid?

Major Dngdale (Lord of the Treasury): I have been asked to reply. I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply given by my right hon. and gallant Friend the


Financial Secretary to the Treasury on the 14th instant to a Question by my hon. Friend the Member for Gravesend (Sir I. Albery).

TIMBER (SHORING-UP PLANKS, SHIPS).

Mr. Wakefield: asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether he is aware that ships are arriving in this country with planks of timber shoring up wheat; that these planks are urgently required but cannot be bought because the Customs will not give permission to sell and the Timber Control refuse to buy; consequently they are taken out of the harbour and dumped overboard; what steps he proposes to take to put an end to this waste; and will he cause an inquiry to be made into the circumstances of the case to which his attention has been drawn?

Major Dugdale: My right hon. and gallant Friend has made such inquiries as are possible without details of the case to which my hon. Friend refers, and he cannot find that any action of the kind suggested has occurred. But if my hon. Friend will give him details, he will have further inquiries made.

Mr. Wakefield: Can representations be made that a controller should be appointed, or power given to the Regional Commissioners to make immediate decisions in cases of the sort to which I have drawn attention, and so avoid waste?

NATIONAL WAR EFFORT (UNEMPLOYED).

Sir L. Lyle: asked the Minister of Labour (1) whether in the April figures, omitting 12,011 as unsuitable for normal full-time employment, he can state the types of industrial or Service work which can be undertaken by the remaining 189,637 unemployed women and girls and what chance they have of obtaining it;
(2)whether, in the April figures, omitting the 36,408 incapable of industrial work, he can state the types of industrial work which the remaining unemployed 172,660 men can do, and what chance they have of doing it?

The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour (Mr. Tomlinson): The published figures include all who happen to be out of work on the particular day on which the count is taken. Apart from those who have been found to be unfitted for ordinary industrial employment, they include those temporarily out of work and about to resume it and those in course of changing-over from one employment to another. Allowing for these factors, there is now practically no reserve of unemployed labour available for, but unable to obtain, employment. All workers who are suitable for employment and who are available to be moved away from home, can be placed in employment without delay. Under any system, there must always be a relatively small number of persons who on any particular day are out of work between two jobs, but it is quite erroneous to suggest that such persons are a body of unemployed for whom work cannot be provided.

Sir H. Williams: What is the date of the latest count?

Mr. Tomlinson: I am not quite sure off-hand, but I think the middle of March.

Mr. Maxton: If I send the hon. Gentleman the name and address of a skilled engineer, with a long seagoing experience and shore experience as well, who has been drawing unemployment benefit since the outbreak of the war, will he try to get him a job?

Mr. Tomlinson: I certainly will, and any other individual case of the kind.

Mr. Mainwaring: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that his reply will cause considerable surprise in centres where there are large bodies of men still idle?

STRAW (PAPER-MAKING).

Mr. Wootton-Davies: asked the Minister of Agriculture (1) whether he can give some explanation of the bottleneck which prevents straw being supplied to paper-makers at the present time;
(2) what supplies of straw there are in the country at the present time which could be used for the production of paper, alcohol or yeast?

The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Agriculture (Mr. T. Williams): Stocks of straw on farms are


normally low in the spring and summer months, and, while increased quantities of straw were available from the 1940 harvest, much larger supplies, particularly of oat straw, have been required for animal feeding. The amounts of straw, available for industrial use are therefore likely to be small until the next harvest. As indicated, however, in reply to my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Howdenshire (Colonel Carver) on 13th May, the Papermakers' Straw Trading Company are being assisted to secure available supplies of wheat and barley straw. I am not aware of any demand for straw for the production of alcohol or yeast.

Mr. Wootton-Davies: Is it not a fact that large quantities of straw would be available if there were adequate trading arrangements, and will the hon. Gentleman bear this in mind for the next harvest?

Mr. Williams: Yes, Sir.

Mr. Mathers: Is my hon. Friend not satisfied that straw is being held up against a possible increase in price, and that paper-makers are thereby being kept out of employment and paper supplies are kept short?

Mr. Williams: We have no information to that effect. If my hon. Friend will supply us with such information, we will gladly look into it.

Sir J. Lamb: Is it not a fact that some straw is being held up because there is a fear that there will be little hay in the next harvest?

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.

Sir H. Williams: On a point of Order. I should like your guidance, Sir, in a matter which affects myself incidentally, and a number of other Members of the Select Committee on National Expenditure. There is to be a Supply Debate today in which I am hoping to take part. Our evidence is taken in secret and is not published. When a Member of a Select Committee takes part in a Debate, I assume that he should confine himself to matters on which Reports have already been presented to Parliament, and that it would be improper to deal with matters which have come before him in evidence on which a Report has not been presented.

It would be helpful to Members of the Select Committee if you would give some guidance.

Mr. Speaker: I think that is the case. Evidence which has been given secretly cannot be divulged.

Mr. G. Griffiths: If that is the case, what about the secret session in Caxton Hall last night?

Mr. Batey: May I ask the Prime Minister whether, when the House goes into Secret Session to-day, it will be possible to have the letters from Hess to the Duke of Hamilton read to the House?

The Prime Minister (Mr. Churchill): I do not think that matter is relevant to a Debate on production.

Mr. Batey: Would it not be possible just to have these letters read, because there has grown up a suspicion in the minds of the people of the country that there is some reason for the Prime Minister not making a statement? [Hon. Members: "No."] It is no use hon. Members saying "No." The least the Prime Minister can do is to read the letters, so that we can see whether anyone else is implicated.

The Prime Minister: A statement will be made at Question Time on the next Sitting Day on this particular point affecting the Duke of Hamilton which, I think, will relieve all anxiety.

CRETE (ENEMY ATTACKS).

Mr. Lees-Smith: May I ask the Prime Minister whether he has any information to give about the war situation?

The Prime Minister: In the Suda Bay area further air-borne attacks commenced at 4.30 yesterday. About 3,000 men were dropped. By 6.30 the greater part of these had been accounted for. Fighting continues, and the situation was reported to be in hand at 9 p.m. The method of attack was by Stukas, that is, dive-bombers, and Messerschmitts, followed by gliders and parachutes. In the Heraklion and Retimo areas attacks began at 5.30 by parachutists. Troop-carrying aircraft, many of which crashed, also landed. There are no details yet. Of course, we must expect that fighting will continue and increase in severity.

Mr. Molson: Is there any confirmation of the report that the parachutists who were dropped were wearing New Zealand battle-dress?

The Prime Minister: Yes, and another report said that those who landed at Retimo were wearing English battle-dress. I see that the Germans have denied this.

Mr. Molson: Will the men dressed in British uniform be dealt with according to international law?

The Prime Minister: I am not sufficiently informed of the exact circumstances. I think that we must leave a certain amount of discretion to those on the spot.

Orders of the Day — SUPPLY.

[7TH ALLOTTED DAY.]

Considered in Committee.

[Sir DENNIS HERBERT in the chair.]

CIVIL ESTIMATES, 1941

UNCLASSIFIED SERVICES.

MINISTRY OF SUPPLY.

Motion made, and Question proposed,
That a sum, not exceeding £90, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1942, for the salaries and expenses of the Ministry of Supply, including the expenses of the Royal Ordnance Factories." —[Note. — £10 has been voted on account.]

Motion made, and Question, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again," put, and agreed to. — [Mr. James Stuart.]

Committee report Progress; to sit again upon the next Sitting Day.

SECRET SESSION.

Notice taken, that Strangers were present.

Whereupon MR. SPEAKER, pursuant to Standing Order No.89, put the Question,

"That Strangers be ordered to withdraw."

Question agreed to.

Strangers withdrew accordingly.

[The remainder of the Sitting was in Secret Session.']